Librarian null zone, the avenger or avenger and gateDreadnought with Assault cannon and heavy flamer, drop pod
Dreadnought with Autocannon and heavy flamer, drop pod
Combat Squad, rhino
Scout squad, missile launcher
Thunderfire Cannon, drop pod
Predator, autocannon and lascannon sponsons
Predator, autocannon and lascannon sponsons
Ideas behind this? Solid cheap anti-tank in the form of 2 predators presenting their av13 while sitting behind a 3+ cover buffed ruin by the thunderfire's techmarine. 2 dreadnoughts drop down and disrupt enemy lines either laying down good anti-infantry firepower or even threatening light tanks especially since we're talking back armour here. Librarian probably goes with the tacticals and spews stuff out the top hatch. Troops in general go into reserve with the scouts probably outflanking to keep them off the table long enough for the enemy to hopefully not have enough stuff left to really threaten them by the time they arrive. All kept quite mobile so it's easy to linebreak/sneak onto free objectives. If librarian has gate then he can linebreak instead. Bit more anti-tank added in the form of a missile launcher and grenades but that's really a last resort.
Flyers? Ignore them unless they're the only thing left.
My thoughts on this? Quite unusual, quite daring and with a bit of luck could go the whole way. The one thing that would improve this is a fully kitted out sternguard squad but mine aren't optimally equipped and I don't currently have enough of them. That said this list hides it's infantry very well so anyone bringing loads of AI will probably have it wasted.Potential bad matchups? IG, always IG, potentially daemons, tau if they manage to shoot the dreads down quickly enough, otherwise incredibly horde heavy armies might ruin my day but I'll still give them a good fight. What I'll do well against on the other hand is any types of space marines, eldar and dark eldar as I can negate some of their shenanigans and mech armies. No clue about necrons and not sure about nids as I haven't versed them yet but we'll see.
How come the Drop Pod on the autcannon Dreadnought? Just to make up Pod numbers?
ReplyDeleteI think you have invested too much into heavy support and not enough into troop choices.
Yes and no, I figured 2 dreads is better than one, but considering I already have some decent backfield at the back I figured adding a heavy flamer would help bring some more mobile anti-infantry to the battle. I guess a more effective option would be to put a multi-melta or assault cannon on it instead. Problem is that I've only got arms for 2 autocannons, a lascannon and a fist...
DeletePossibly, but you might find it quite difficult to kill the troops. Also because I have so few infantry and they're effectively 'hidden' it may throw some opponents and make them waste the anti-infantry weapons they've paid for. Obviously this won't work when the enemy brings multi-purpose stuff but I'm willing to try my luck.
Might have to play a test game and see how it works. Obviously if I had the models 2 sniper scout squad with camo cloaks would be better if I had the models...
Yes, assault cannon would be better.
DeleteHow is it going to be difficult killing 10 troop models? Lol. If an opponent wants them, then they can get to them. If you're playing objectives then the troops will be primary targets.
Yes, testing is the way forward. I will keep an eye out for the results.
Consider this: my troops one in about t3 game ends about t6. You have 3 turns to kill 10 guys, yes. These guys have no weapons that I really have the urge to use, or that you are scared of. So that leads to a) these guys going to ground for a 2+ save if its a ruin with area terrain or because of the thunderfire's +1 to cover. If you're shooting at them, you're probably spending a significant portion of your firepower (this is 1000 points after all) which is then not going into other stuff. Yes I agree that against certain opponents they will not survive, but think of it this way... There are only 2 missions where they will be my sole troops. Crusade and relic. Relic doesn't even count because more often than not it is left unclaimed in the end anyway. So that's only one mission where I'm worried about you killing them anyway... 6th is very different from 5th because of the missions
DeleteI would love to play this list against my 1000 point NovaMarine List. I think two troop choices are the max in 1000 points but they need to be maxed out. Also no anti air will mean my StormTalons will have a field day you cannot just ignore them especially if I use them to escort in a combat squaded Tac squad in a Razorback. Also people usually balk at the Whirlwind but it does its job and is the only non LOS requiring large pie plate dropping weapon that the Space Marines have even the Thunderfire although awesome does require LOS and a lot of people forget that and use it with very questionable LOS. I would drop the lascannons on the Preds and just go with the heavy bolters for volume of fire. The Dreads are alright but I would go with one over two. Use the excess points to bulk up your Tac Squad or drop the Scouts and add in two full Tac Squads with the points.
ReplyDeleteHere is my List:
Librarian BRB Powers
10 Man Tac Squad
Missile Launcher
Plasma Gun
Sgt with Bolter and Bolt Pistol
Razorback
10 Man Tac Squad
Missile Launcher
Flamer
Sgt with Power Sword/Bolter
Razorback
1x3 Attack Bike Squad Heavy Bolters
Storm Talon Assault Cannon Skyhammers
Stom Talon Assault Cannon Skyhammers
Whirlwind
You've got a few fundamental mistakes in your reasoning. Your list was specifically something I was NOT trying to make when I thought up my army. Since you put it that way yourself, let's look at list vs list first... Personally, I wouldn't expect you to reserve the tacticals and razorbacks escorted or not, but that way it's all the better for me. So you've taken your 'fighting elements of your army' that are supposedly most dangerous to me and put them in reserve. That leaves what? 3 bikes, a whirlwind a librarian and 2 combat squads, like 400-500 points... What's this up against? Quite literally my whole army, I have over 800 points on the field turn one versus literally half your army. Notice how this is not the scoring part of my army - this is the armoured element. You have minimal units that can threaten all the tanks that I'm putting out and especially in terms of your whirlwind, wtf are you shooting at? My thunderfire? Seems like the best option. Having maybe killed like a predator, I then proceed to drop down, flame any troops, shoot your armour to death and add a few blasts into the mix. Next turn this will be followed by assault.
DeleteWhy do I need to worry about your flyers that will supposedly have a 'field day'? My heavy tanks are in my backfield - the only thing you're gonna see the first few turns you come on is my front AV13 armour - your puny str6/7 guns do not scare me at all. The whole point me having so few troops, is that literally especially with what you have, by the time they come on at about turn 3 - you'll have next to nothing to kill them with. Oh well maybe your whirlwind which I probably won't bother targetting - have fun trying to kill some marines with that. With your lack of anti-tank, my anti-tank tanks shall soon run out of targets and have to go up against your storm talons, eventually something will hit, and I don't fancy your chances considering you'll be having 4 lascannon and 4 autocannon shots going into you per turn.
You make a good point about the TFC but I (hopefully) plan to put it into cover high up and make a 3+ save ruin for the predators to hang out in, so even if I don't get los I am still doing my job with it - well worth 100 points. Predators - I used to be of a similar opinion as you but think of it this way. I can get a squad of devastators with 4 missile launchers for 155 points, that's four str 8 shots on a 5 wound unit. With a predator I get 2 str 9 and 2 str 7 shots (basically the equivalent of devastators but losing the frag option) and instead get 3 hull points and front armour 13 for a significantly cheaper price of 120 points. I think it's a no brainer, especially when I have not one but 2 distracting dreadnoughts in your face. Reason for 2 = 2 heavy flamers, adds more much needed anti-infantry that doesn't really scatter and can quickly get in the face of my opponent.
I think you've completely missed the point of my troops - they're resiliency lies in the fact that most of the time they're off the table and by the time they come you can't really deal with them. Meanwhile I can kill your troops much more efficiently than you can between 2 heavy flamers, an ap3 flamer (on my librarian) and 4 small blasts, as well as some dreadnought close combat love.
Onto your list: let's regard it in a tournament setting. Ignoring the fact that most of your army is off the board for half the game and how easy it is to wipe you out over 2 turns, we come to other problems. Seriously man wtf are you gonna do against tyranids??? One whirlwind? Really?? At least I can keep them distracted in the midfield and flame them a bit and buy myself some time and a last minute objective grab/contest. Heldrakes? Your precious fully kitted out tacticals are very valuable and very easy targets. Tau? You can't outshoot them, you're not really fast enough to get into cc with them and your army is coming on piecemeal to boot. Finally your two tacticals net you basically the same result as my two small troops only for more points. 2 combat squads should really die over the course of the game and yours are starting on the field t1.
DeleteSo overall I think I'll keep my list, but thanks for your well-argued opinion
Like I said I would enjoy the opportunity to play our lists against one another and let the lists decide. We can banter back and forth as to tactics and whose units would do what to the others. Lets let the lists decide.
ReplyDeleteLol and how do you suggest we do that? ;) :P
DeleteWe could get a game in over Vassal I suppose.
ReplyDelete